HomeRevolving Pacelines
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Dahlpad
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Revolving Pacelines
Dahlpad Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:24 pm
Hello everybody,
I would like to discuss Pacelines. I would like to hear what you think of them and how they work. I'm happy to concede that most of you have a lot more experience at riding, racing, training than me but I thought our effort on Thursday night just didn't work. Some of us are really quite good at keeping it tight. I received plenty of flak for not keeping it tight and rightly so as this is a common failure with me. Fless is an absolute master at "sucking'' a wheel and it was a pleasure to see. But the way I understand it is that there are two lines - a working line which sets the pace (say 40kph) and a recovery line which is slower (say 39kph). I think this is where we failed to function effectively. In order to prevent the working line having to constantly surge to pass the recovery line, the riders in the recovery line must reduce speed. If they do not reduce speed, the working line must surge to get past. If they do not surge then we are left with two lines travelling at the same speed. To be truly effective a paceline must:
Paul.
I would like to discuss Pacelines. I would like to hear what you think of them and how they work. I'm happy to concede that most of you have a lot more experience at riding, racing, training than me but I thought our effort on Thursday night just didn't work. Some of us are really quite good at keeping it tight. I received plenty of flak for not keeping it tight and rightly so as this is a common failure with me. Fless is an absolute master at "sucking'' a wheel and it was a pleasure to see. But the way I understand it is that there are two lines - a working line which sets the pace (say 40kph) and a recovery line which is slower (say 39kph). I think this is where we failed to function effectively. In order to prevent the working line having to constantly surge to pass the recovery line, the riders in the recovery line must reduce speed. If they do not reduce speed, the working line must surge to get past. If they do not surge then we are left with two lines travelling at the same speed. To be truly effective a paceline must:
- Keep it tight - keep close to the wheel in front and both lines should be close together.
- Two lines - Two Speeds. The working line sets the pace; the recovering line reduces speed to prevent the working line from surging.
- Keep your line. Quite often while riding through the Esses some riders wanted to cut the corners while others (correctly) followed the wheel in front. If you don't follow the wheel in front both lines disintegrate. You have riders all over the place.
- The leading recovery line rider should call out "clear'' when the leading working line rider is clear to cross over to the recovery line. The last rider in the working line should call out "last wheel'' to the last rider in the recovery line so he knows it is safe to cross over to the working line.
Paul.
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Re: Revolving Pacelines
ven2 Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:03 am
Paul, I understand the points you've made.
- as far as not keeping it tight width wise, I think one of the causes is some riders were more prepared to use most of the track width, whereas others are trying to leave a gap for faster riders. My view is no matter your speed, always presume there's faster riders on the track, and leave space on the inside for them. Some might remember Callum broke his collar bone last year due to slower riders on the inside.
- another reason for loose width is some riders are not as predictable in the line they are following. I'll always put safety first and give them a wider berth, whether I am on the in or outside.
- I agree about the speed of the inner and outer lines - the differential will be about 1kph imho. The onus is on the lead guy crossing to the outside to ease off.
- I think some guys were calling clear and others not. And then some were crossing early and sharply, before clear was called. They need to realize that doesn't make the paceline go quicker, and a sharp cross/swerve adds unnecessary risk.
- I know I was late crossing from the outside to the inside at the back several times, even when 'last rider' was called. This was due to my cautious nature in relation to the rider that was hanging off the back. I think it was the female (Tina?). I didn't know if she was intending to join the loop or not. In any respect, if a rider is going to hang off the back of a revolving paceline, it is probably better they do so at the back of the outside line rather than the inside, to avoid confusion.
- as for staying <50 cm off a wheel, I think that is only achievable when all the points above are sorted.
Nevertheless, I think paceline training is essential for race training. A break is going to use a paceline in one form or another to hold maximum speed for minimum energy expenditure.
It'd be good to get some tips from more experienced riders as well, like holding a straight line when checking both sides.
- as far as not keeping it tight width wise, I think one of the causes is some riders were more prepared to use most of the track width, whereas others are trying to leave a gap for faster riders. My view is no matter your speed, always presume there's faster riders on the track, and leave space on the inside for them. Some might remember Callum broke his collar bone last year due to slower riders on the inside.
- another reason for loose width is some riders are not as predictable in the line they are following. I'll always put safety first and give them a wider berth, whether I am on the in or outside.
- I agree about the speed of the inner and outer lines - the differential will be about 1kph imho. The onus is on the lead guy crossing to the outside to ease off.
- I think some guys were calling clear and others not. And then some were crossing early and sharply, before clear was called. They need to realize that doesn't make the paceline go quicker, and a sharp cross/swerve adds unnecessary risk.
- I know I was late crossing from the outside to the inside at the back several times, even when 'last rider' was called. This was due to my cautious nature in relation to the rider that was hanging off the back. I think it was the female (Tina?). I didn't know if she was intending to join the loop or not. In any respect, if a rider is going to hang off the back of a revolving paceline, it is probably better they do so at the back of the outside line rather than the inside, to avoid confusion.
- as for staying <50 cm off a wheel, I think that is only achievable when all the points above are sorted.
Nevertheless, I think paceline training is essential for race training. A break is going to use a paceline in one form or another to hold maximum speed for minimum energy expenditure.
It'd be good to get some tips from more experienced riders as well, like holding a straight line when checking both sides.
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Re: Revolving Pacelines
Onehundredandeighty Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:49 am
I agree with pretty much everything you both have said Paul and Bruce.
First up, I should apologise for not mentioning to everyone(I did to some), that it was Tina's first attempt at a session like that and she did intend on staying just off the back until she felt comfortable about having a 'go'. I'm sure you both realise how difficult it is trying to communicate something/anything to a bunch of five or more guys rolling around especially if someone is on another part of the track when something is said, and they then join the group not having heard the original conversation. As an example when Fless says what we are doing for an effort, it still gets stuffed up in one way or another. I know nobody wants to be treated like a schoolkid, and I'm not saying at all that we have been or should do, but I think it would still help if we had a bit more of a 'briefing' before we start one of these sessions if we want it to flow smoothly or smoother.
Having said all that, I still reckon it will take time for us to gel as a group(for a session like yesterday), no matter how hard we all try. It's just human nature that everyone will have a slightly differing slant on what needs to be done.
Thoughts?
First up, I should apologise for not mentioning to everyone(I did to some), that it was Tina's first attempt at a session like that and she did intend on staying just off the back until she felt comfortable about having a 'go'. I'm sure you both realise how difficult it is trying to communicate something/anything to a bunch of five or more guys rolling around especially if someone is on another part of the track when something is said, and they then join the group not having heard the original conversation. As an example when Fless says what we are doing for an effort, it still gets stuffed up in one way or another. I know nobody wants to be treated like a schoolkid, and I'm not saying at all that we have been or should do, but I think it would still help if we had a bit more of a 'briefing' before we start one of these sessions if we want it to flow smoothly or smoother.
Having said all that, I still reckon it will take time for us to gel as a group(for a session like yesterday), no matter how hard we all try. It's just human nature that everyone will have a slightly differing slant on what needs to be done.
Thoughts?
Onehundredandeighty- Admin
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Revolving Pacelines
Dahlpad Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:23 am
Yes Phil and Bruce,
This is the major failing with this AC group. We lack communication. Everything is done on the fly. Plans are shouted out by one (or worse) by a half-dozen guys while the group is in motion and everyone gets only part or parts of what is going on. This forum is another case in point. As usual I have got it wrong as I thought it was set up so that we could all discuss issues, make training/racing plans, review performances etc etc. But who reads it? BruceG; Onehundredandeighty and Dahlpad that's who. I was astounded this morning to hear one of our members say that he never gets involved with forums! I won't say who but he has just had an obvious haircut! I think both of you have been so articulate and have come up with useful ideas. But for whom? Who reads what you say? All the work you put in and we seem to be the only ones who take the time to be involved. I'm starting to loose faith. I mean, even the planned rides are not placed on the site to encourage people look at it. The calendar is empty. Do we know when the Mt Coot-tha Challenge is going to happen? Or HPRW TTs, or other major races - like the Soldiers Honour or Elimba road race - these require group training and planning. We still get emails and will continue to do so for our weekly rides. So what is the point of this site? Zilch as far as I can see. When we are down at the track and plan to do some particular training exercise, we would be better off stopping everybody at the shelter shed and explaining what is to be done than the three of us yapping away at each other on this site. I'm really disappointed. At the beginning I thought this was the best thing to have happened to AC Racing since the advent of the megaphone but it has proved to be a waste of time. Obviously it is too involved a concept for such a loose knit group such as ours. A forum is probably pitched at more motivated and involved rider/racers who have coaching/training issues that need to be acted on by the coaches and their trainees. I probably have assumed too much as usual and haven't understood that group members only want a very low key and casual commitment. They don't want to be part of anything too demanding or time consuming. So now I think I will take a step back and wait for the utter deluge of outraged responses to this post . . . . I think I'm pretty safe! ha ha.
Now I have had my RANT I will go and have a bottle of beer and a chocolate - or probably two bottles and two chocolates and fourteen bags of chips and a pie and peas and another bottle of beer - oh why stop there . . . a bottle of scotch and three fish fingers and . . . and . . .
See you tomorrow/Sunday.
Paul.
This is the major failing with this AC group. We lack communication. Everything is done on the fly. Plans are shouted out by one (or worse) by a half-dozen guys while the group is in motion and everyone gets only part or parts of what is going on. This forum is another case in point. As usual I have got it wrong as I thought it was set up so that we could all discuss issues, make training/racing plans, review performances etc etc. But who reads it? BruceG; Onehundredandeighty and Dahlpad that's who. I was astounded this morning to hear one of our members say that he never gets involved with forums! I won't say who but he has just had an obvious haircut! I think both of you have been so articulate and have come up with useful ideas. But for whom? Who reads what you say? All the work you put in and we seem to be the only ones who take the time to be involved. I'm starting to loose faith. I mean, even the planned rides are not placed on the site to encourage people look at it. The calendar is empty. Do we know when the Mt Coot-tha Challenge is going to happen? Or HPRW TTs, or other major races - like the Soldiers Honour or Elimba road race - these require group training and planning. We still get emails and will continue to do so for our weekly rides. So what is the point of this site? Zilch as far as I can see. When we are down at the track and plan to do some particular training exercise, we would be better off stopping everybody at the shelter shed and explaining what is to be done than the three of us yapping away at each other on this site. I'm really disappointed. At the beginning I thought this was the best thing to have happened to AC Racing since the advent of the megaphone but it has proved to be a waste of time. Obviously it is too involved a concept for such a loose knit group such as ours. A forum is probably pitched at more motivated and involved rider/racers who have coaching/training issues that need to be acted on by the coaches and their trainees. I probably have assumed too much as usual and haven't understood that group members only want a very low key and casual commitment. They don't want to be part of anything too demanding or time consuming. So now I think I will take a step back and wait for the utter deluge of outraged responses to this post . . . . I think I'm pretty safe! ha ha.
Now I have had my RANT I will go and have a bottle of beer and a chocolate - or probably two bottles and two chocolates and fourteen bags of chips and a pie and peas and another bottle of beer - oh why stop there . . . a bottle of scotch and three fish fingers and . . . and . . .
See you tomorrow/Sunday.
Paul.
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Re: Revolving Pacelines
Onehundredandeighty Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:12 pm
Yes Paul, I'm hearing ya'......
You are right in what you say. You can call it a rant but I think you're just 'telling it like it is'.
I think in short, we have to just hope more people can get involved in the forum, but failing that we just go out and ENJOY our riding, whatever it is and don't stress about it.
Have to also remember, not everyone is into participating in forums or maybe they just don't have the time (OR, maybe I've got TOO much time)
I guess the best way to attack it is..... go to the track in the morning, and, ATTACK!!!
You are right in what you say. You can call it a rant but I think you're just 'telling it like it is'.
I think in short, we have to just hope more people can get involved in the forum, but failing that we just go out and ENJOY our riding, whatever it is and don't stress about it.
Have to also remember, not everyone is into participating in forums or maybe they just don't have the time (OR, maybe I've got TOO much time)
I guess the best way to attack it is..... go to the track in the morning, and, ATTACK!!!
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Re: Revolving Pacelines
ven2 Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:17 am
How about we just change the name of the forum to the PaulPhilBruce forum, and the three of us continue to rabbit on, with a generous and frivolous use of emoticons 
I think life regularly gets in the way of forum members, so don't think the forum is a total waste of web space and time at the moment.
Gee, even if we three can discuss better training, as we have here with pacelines, no doubt the three of us will clearly express that at the track and lead to better training.
So all is not a lost cause Paul.
BTW, sorry for not showing up at racing this morning. I thought I was 21 again last night and hammered the bottle with the encouragement of bad company.
First time I've done that in yonks.
Phil, I agree it'll take time to train more effectively. I think we're doing ok in improving paceline training, and the discussions here will accelerate that. Maybe we could get Adam Baker to show up and guide us every now and again.
I think life regularly gets in the way of forum members, so don't think the forum is a total waste of web space and time at the moment.
Gee, even if we three can discuss better training, as we have here with pacelines, no doubt the three of us will clearly express that at the track and lead to better training.
So all is not a lost cause Paul.
BTW, sorry for not showing up at racing this morning. I thought I was 21 again last night and hammered the bottle with the encouragement of bad company.
First time I've done that in yonks.Phil, I agree it'll take time to train more effectively. I think we're doing ok in improving paceline training, and the discussions here will accelerate that. Maybe we could get Adam Baker to show up and guide us every now and again.
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Revolving Paceline training
PedroH Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:15 am
Hi
Just so you know: as a new road cyclist I get a huge amount of value from the paceline work we did on Thursday and would like to do more of it for various reasons. The primary one is safety - the more disciplined we become as a working group the safer we are in training, on the road and I suspect racing also. Discipline includes pre-briefing and debriefing before and after efforts, establishing protocols for communication and rolling off or wheel sucking for those who have buried themselves (probably me).
It's no secret that some racing grades are safer than other because they are more coordinated. BruceG to take your point - I would rather be sprinting for the line as 8 disciplined groups of 8 riders (that I trust) than as 64 individuals seeking weekend glory and the grand sum of $20. I'm not suggesting that safety is ever guaranteed but as and observer it makes sense to me. I would really like to go racing and I'm not going to avoid C Grade (I am officially forbidden to ride D Grade) but the recent falls and their causes concern me. Riding on road and off road is too important to me in terms of quality of life to get get permanently broken over a C Grade Crit Race. I would rather ride AUDAX and other enduros.
Anyway, I enjoy the training and there is no doubt that the experience and knowledge that you guys share has strengthened my riding since October last year, so thanks.
Pete
Just so you know: as a new road cyclist I get a huge amount of value from the paceline work we did on Thursday and would like to do more of it for various reasons. The primary one is safety - the more disciplined we become as a working group the safer we are in training, on the road and I suspect racing also. Discipline includes pre-briefing and debriefing before and after efforts, establishing protocols for communication and rolling off or wheel sucking for those who have buried themselves (probably me).
It's no secret that some racing grades are safer than other because they are more coordinated. BruceG to take your point - I would rather be sprinting for the line as 8 disciplined groups of 8 riders (that I trust) than as 64 individuals seeking weekend glory and the grand sum of $20. I'm not suggesting that safety is ever guaranteed but as and observer it makes sense to me. I would really like to go racing and I'm not going to avoid C Grade (I am officially forbidden to ride D Grade) but the recent falls and their causes concern me. Riding on road and off road is too important to me in terms of quality of life to get get permanently broken over a C Grade Crit Race. I would rather ride AUDAX and other enduros.
Anyway, I enjoy the training and there is no doubt that the experience and knowledge that you guys share has strengthened my riding since October last year, so thanks.
Pete
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Join date : 2012-03-03
Revolving Pacelines
Dahlpad Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:11 pm
Actually Peter, you have said it all. Safety should and I think is paramount with our group. That is why we take the trouble to train together to learn skills that will help us in all kinds of racing or riding for that matter. We aren't just the week-end warriors that rock up and think each race is just a free-for-all stampede. So we will be doing more pacelines as well as attacks/breakaways and chasing. I like your idea of pre-training briefings and post training reviews. The reviews should be conducted as soon as possible after training which means at the track. I don't think we will be able to get everybody to do that on this forum as for some reason most are hesitant to open up on this site. And anyway, I am still not able to receive posts directly. I have to go to my emails to receive a post notification and then go through the log-in process all over again. I have never had a "You have a new message'' alert at the top of this page. It always says I have no new messages. The system is terribly cumbersome. I would have thought that on a forum you should be able to send and receive replies without interruption in much the same way as having a conversation face to face. But apparently not.
See you at 6am.
Paul.
See you at 6am.
Paul.
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Re: Revolving Pacelines
ven2 Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:50 pm
Paul, the forum message function is for when another member wants to contact you privately and doesn't have your email address.
The idea of a forum is to make posts to 'conversation' threads that other members can read and participate in.
This forum works pretty much like all others in that you cannot make contributions from your email program.
Maybe I don't understand what functionality you think is missing.
Pedro, I am glad you see some of the logic re safer racing. Heard you weren't allowed into D grade. I think that sums up the state of denial the officials are in regarding the recent spate of crashes.
Paul said there were 61 riders in B grade today. That's ridiculous. Glad I wasn't in the D grade race with a pack that big lapping and attacking each other.
The idea of a forum is to make posts to 'conversation' threads that other members can read and participate in.
This forum works pretty much like all others in that you cannot make contributions from your email program.
Maybe I don't understand what functionality you think is missing.
Pedro, I am glad you see some of the logic re safer racing. Heard you weren't allowed into D grade. I think that sums up the state of denial the officials are in regarding the recent spate of crashes.
Paul said there were 61 riders in B grade today. That's ridiculous. Glad I wasn't in the D grade race with a pack that big lapping and attacking each other.
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Rolling paceline
geemacd Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:51 am
- You guys are bang on.!
Great discussion & what you've said is correct (IMHO....)
Check out:
htt p :/ / ww w. cyclingtipsblog. com/2009/02/rolling-turns-pacelining-echeloning/
And here's a funny but informative one in motion: ht tp :// ww w .cyclingtips. com. au/2010/11/rolling-through/
One thing that can be added whilst riding in the rolling paceline is the 'dead pedal stroke' where a rider, when moving from the leading side (RHS) takes a 'dead pedal stroke' when he/she moves to the LHS and is 'clear' of that line.
A 'dead pedal stroke' can be described as a half pedal stroke with no force applied. some don't spin that leg at all, some even take a half pedal stroke backwards.
A bit like when you bring your arm out and to the right when about to take a drink from your biddon to alert riders behind, this dead/back pedal is an accentuated & deliberate motion that demonstrates to the people behind you know what you are doing and are working at keeping it together.
It also ensures the bloke now behind you can get in your draft and that the bloke moving up on your RHS can get up there more easily.
Another absolute key message in your discussions here i think is the issue of pre & post briefing. The pre is vital to ensure everyone knows what we are about to do, and also contributes greatly to a more enjoyable, safe and much more productive session.
the post-ride brief equally so. Reflection of applicaton is the key to accelerating learning.
One issue we may like to discuss/consider is what to do when someone 'jumps in'. (not Phil's friend off the back - i'm referring to someone jumping in and riding, often erratically, with us)
It's a prickly subject & one I've dealt with a few times previously..... If we say, "sorry, this is a closed training session, would you mind dropping out of the bunch" some people get the sh*ts, some may even think we're snobs. My response is that 'sorry mate, safety is paramount and his is an insurance issue. If you as a non-club member are allowed to train with us, on something you've never been briefed on or trained in, and something untoward happens, we are not covered'
Whether this is 100% correct I don't know, but it seems to work... And it's often well received.
Thoughts.?
G
PS - see you soon.... :-)
geemacd- Posts : 50
Join date : 2012-02-28
Re: Revolving Pacelines
ven2 Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:00 am
Hey Geemacd, I like what you are saying, very logical, and more than a hint of experience....but I have no idea who you are.
Paul Adcock was at Coffee this morning. He went to the HPRW AGM yesterday, and felt that any ideas we had to improve racing and safety should be freely expressed as he feels current officials aren't necessarily close minded, but possibly just haven't thought of how to improve things. Paul agreed electronic timing was a reasonable idea that would free up officials to monitor the racing more closely (rather than catching numbers for primes and finishes). It would also allow more primes and points racing, with less stress on the officials. I've agreed to get in touch with a mate in a large Melbourne club about their timing system, and will present it to the club.
If you have any other ideas, let us know. No doubt, there's a lot of smart and resourceful guys amongst HPRW's 311 members, and admin would do well to tap into that, by asking for input.
Paul Adcock was at Coffee this morning. He went to the HPRW AGM yesterday, and felt that any ideas we had to improve racing and safety should be freely expressed as he feels current officials aren't necessarily close minded, but possibly just haven't thought of how to improve things. Paul agreed electronic timing was a reasonable idea that would free up officials to monitor the racing more closely (rather than catching numbers for primes and finishes). It would also allow more primes and points racing, with less stress on the officials. I've agreed to get in touch with a mate in a large Melbourne club about their timing system, and will present it to the club.
If you have any other ideas, let us know. No doubt, there's a lot of smart and resourceful guys amongst HPRW's 311 members, and admin would do well to tap into that, by asking for input.
ven2- Admin
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Re: Revolving Pacelines
PaulA Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:31 am
BruceG wrote:How about we just change the name of the forum to the PaulPhilBruce forum, and the three of us continue to rabbit on, with a generous and frivolous use of emoticons
Hi PaulPhilBruce and other posters and readers, I have been enjoying reading all the posts and consider them both informative and useful, keep it up. I will certainly post if I have something informative and/or useful to share with everyone. Good work!
Paul Adcock
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Location : Newstead -
Rolling pacelines
geemacd Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:43 am
Very flattering mr gray.!
As for my identity, all will be revealed in the coming days.
Look forward to catching up with you all. It's been a while.c
G
As for my identity, all will be revealed in the coming days.
Look forward to catching up with you all. It's been a while.c
G
geemacd- Posts : 50
Join date : 2012-02-28
Rolling Pacelines
Dahlpad Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:27 am
Yes Geemacd,
I too am at a loss to know who you are but what you say is also spot on and I think fundamentally important as regards getting a paceline to work correctly and safely. Pre and post briefings are essential. Unknown riders just hopping on is courting disaster - which is a pity because nobody wants to exclude riders who are keen to take part. I think we all want to encourage and include all riders. However, during a specific training session which has been structured around a pre/post briefing, an unknown rider just puts a spanner in the works big time. So thanks for you input and we all look forward to discovering your identity. We had the same problem with 180 who turned out to be Phil whose posts are as you know are really worth reading as well.
See you soon,
Paul (er, Dahlpad)!
I too am at a loss to know who you are but what you say is also spot on and I think fundamentally important as regards getting a paceline to work correctly and safely. Pre and post briefings are essential. Unknown riders just hopping on is courting disaster - which is a pity because nobody wants to exclude riders who are keen to take part. I think we all want to encourage and include all riders. However, during a specific training session which has been structured around a pre/post briefing, an unknown rider just puts a spanner in the works big time. So thanks for you input and we all look forward to discovering your identity. We had the same problem with 180 who turned out to be Phil whose posts are as you know are really worth reading as well.
See you soon,
Paul (er, Dahlpad)!
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